Collogue:Fitbaa/Archive 1

Glossar

The fitbaw glossar is awfu lang an can be fund Here.

Vocabular

Thanks for that and a lot of that such as some of the more obscure team nicknames is definitely very useful. Apologies for writing this reply in English but I have been away from a Scots speaking environment for over 15 years now and was never formally taught in school how to write in the Scots I spoke in the playground so it will take me a while to get fully back into it again and I don't have the time today to struggle my way through it.

I have a bit of a problem with a lot of the vocabulary within your glossary, however. From my persepctive it is normal for two closely related languages like Scots and English to share even 80 or 90% of the same lexicon so dreaming up new words for "goal" and "relegation" that absolutely nobody ever uses in Scots speech seems a bit strange to me. Perhaps this is driven by a fear of the old "it's just a dialect of English" angle of attack but the problem I always see with it is that Hyperlallans spelling and vocabulary makes the literary tradition totally inaccessable to native speakers and therefore winds up basically just being a form of gibberish. I always think people should read the old makkars like Dunbar before trying to write Scots to get a feel for how the language really works and how it is similar to but at the same time distinctly different from English. I also don't understand what's going on with this "diveesion" spelling. Firstly because it's a Latin/Norman French sort of word and within the traditional Scots literary tradition the original Romance langauge style orthography was usually maintained and secondly because in Scots orthography the English "ee" sound is usually written as "ei" as in heid, deid, Reid etc.

I have been somewhat perplexed by way that pages I have written over the past few days have been quickly modified in terms of spelling away not just from English but also from the 700 year old literary tradition of the Scots language. Is this wiki for the Scots language or a phonetic based Scottish equivalent to ebonics? For example, Falkirk is the traditional Scots spelling as well as the English ones. It goes back for centuries. Another example is that if you look on any Ordnance Survey map of rural parts of the central belt you will find "Wester" and "Easter" for farmnames in which a landholding was split into western and eastern portions at some point. The name of the Wester Hailes council scheme in Edinburgh would be a good urban example of this. The "wast" spelling does not appear to me to be part of our literary tradition and it simply does not fit the pronunciations in the Forth Valley dialects (including the Falkirk area) that I am most familiar with, which are very close to the Lothian dialects that were the traditional Scots literary standard. The only placenames that should be modified in my opinion are those which were deliberately anglicised away from their original Scots spelling over the past few centuries e.g. Linlithgow/Lithgae, Parkheid/Parkhead or Rutherglen/Ruglen. I don't even really approve of "sooth" being used instead of "south" given that in traditional Scots orthography "ou" is what is used for that sound. Scots and English have different vowel systems so it may be the same spelling but the words sound different when read out properly in the two languages. For example "Houss" is the traditional equivalent in Scots of the English word "House" and can still be found in Ordnance Survey maps of Shetland.

Sorry if this comes across as being a bit of a rant but the talk page is after all where these sorts of things get discussed on wikipedia, Benarty 04:21, 27 Februar 2006 (UTC)

A didna pit the glossar thegither. A wis gien it a few year syne an forgot aw aboot it no bein interestit in fitbaw. It wis aw yer airticles anent fitbaw that myndit me o't. A think the oreeginal wis in Lallans magazine. A'm lucky that Auchterturra librar aye subscribes tae it.

Some o the wirds micht juist be auld-farrant acause, as ye ken, English terms haes aye been replacin Scots anes, sae mony fowk michtna be acquent wi the aulder Scots anes. A dinna richt ken hou 'hyperlallans' the spellins is. They seem fairly modren 'mainstream' tae me. Readin the Auld Makars is interestin but they wrate in Aulder Scots an some fowk quaisten uisin sicna orthography on the grunds that fowk is mair fameeliar wi the likes o Burns an Fergusson or e'en juist Oor Wullie an the Broons.

Its a fair pynt aboot uisin 'ee' in Romance wirds, write 'religion' but read 'releegion'? Tho e'en here spellins wi 'ee' is common eneuch in 18t an 19t century writin. Haudin that the 'ee' soond is tradeetionally written 'ei' is a fair pynt but certies wirds lik 'heid' an 'deid' haes an 'ai' soond in some dialects that's vouel 3 in the IPA chairt for Scots whaur as wirds wi vouels 2 an 11 aye haes the 'ee' soond an is aften spelt 'ee' in 18t an 19t century leeteratur.

Ye're richt eneuch aboot 'Falkirk' bein the tradeetional spellin. In middle Scots the 'l' wis an orthographic merker o vouel length but on thon basis ye could threap that aw wirds wi historical 'l' vocalisation maun be spelt wi 'l's sae 'al(l)' an no 'aw' or hieven forbid 'a’'. Mony place names haes anglifee's spellins onywey an aiblins wis niver written doun afore the ordinance survey. Wast wis uised aften eneuch gaun bi the SND. O coorse the ongaun onding o English leads tae anglifee'd pronunciations, that's e'en mair likely whaur fowk is juist acquent wi 'English' written forms.

Yer richt aboot 'ou' bein the tradeetional spellin o vouel 6. As for 'Houss' bein tradeetional, it seems tae be the ae form no listit in DOST that gies 'hous, hows, hus(e), hous(s)e, houis, hows(s)e, howis(e), hws, husse, huise, hwis an huys'. A body coud threap 'house' is the tradeetional spellin as it seems tae be in the SND that disna mention 'houss' at aw. Aiblins thon itsel bein a 'hyperlallans' spellin the 'ss' an ettle tae hae fowk soond it 'oo'? Wad ye write 'mouss' an bi analogy 'outt'?

Ye're screed certies isna a rant, thir's aw fair pynts ye're makkin.

Jimmy 21:07, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

Here's a url for Houss in Shetland [1]. An anither uise o "houss" fae Torphichen in West Lothian in the 17t century [2].

Walter Gledstaines, married to Margrat Sincklar
in my Lord Torphichen's houss at Calder by Mr
John Somervale, minister, yr., October 3d, 1671,
and had borne to them. Francis, borne upon
thursday at Havicke at 5 hours at night, September
26th, 1672;

The "ss" in "Houss" is no different fae "ss" in the name o a toun like "Culross" (pron. Coo-ris) IMO. An here's a wee bit of Barbour's "The Brus" [3] an Blin Harry's "The Wallace" [4] wi the word "west":-

Tharfor into the Fyrth come thai	
And endlang it up held thai
Quhill thai besid Ennerkething
On west half towart Dunferlyng
Tuk land and fast begouth to ryve.
The erle of Fyff and the schyrreff	
Saw to thar cost schippis approchand
Thai gaderyt to defend thar land
And a-forgayn the schippis ay
As thai saillyt thai held thar way 
And thocht to let thaim land to tak.

Thar I was born amang the schawis scheyne.
Now I desyr this north land for to se,
Quhar I mycht fynd better duellyng for me."
The mar said, "Schir, I sper nocht for nane ille,
Bot feill tithingis oft syis is brocht us till
Of ane Wallace, was born into the west.
Our kingis men he haldis at gret unrest,
Martiris thaim doun, gret peté is to se.
Out of the trewis, forsuth, we trow he be."

Benarty 08:38, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Siller?

Words drap oot o the lexicon. Siller is archaic an juist isnae uised by fowk the day. Thare is naething wrang wi "money" IMO. The guid Scots tung is a livin an evolvin language. Benarty 12:08, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

Cynics (Ceenics) wad see "livin an evolvin" tae mean turnin intae English. Wad Cynics would see "living an evolving" to mean turning into English spak wi a Scottish accent be Scots?

84.135.221.46 12:24, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

A write in the words that A hiv rummlin aboot in ma heid. It's ma mither tung an it's the familiar register o Scots. Benarty 13:30, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

First aff, hello an walcome Benarty -- it's aye guid tae hae mair native spaekers contreebutin tae the Wiki! An congratulations on the pouer o wark ye'v been pittin intae the fitbaw-relatit pages.

Nou, aboot "siller"/"money". A'v nae dout "money" etc. is the words that's in yer heid, but A wad say that ye canna hae it baith weys; ye canna say that we'r no uphaudin the 700-year leeterary tradeetion ("Is this wiki for the Scots language or a phonetic based Scottish equivalent to ebonics?") on the tae haund, an rail agin words like "siller" on the tither. Forby thon, A'm no shuir ye'r richt tae say that "siller" isna uised bi fowk the day. A wad think maist Scots spaekers wad certies unnerstaund it (that's ma experience onieroad). Spaekers mibbe wadna uise it as readily the day as thay did afore, but that's true for a hail laid o Scots words that's bein replaced wi the English, an that disna mean we shuidna be uisin thaim, specially no a word as kenspeckle as "siller". (Bi the by, hou "archaic" dae ye mean bi "archaic"? Is the 1930s archaic? Acause Lewis Grassic Gibbon uises "silver" (meanin for it tae be sayed "siller") aw ower Sunset Song for tae mean money, an that wis written in 1932.)

Forby thon, ye say ye'r writin in the familiar register o Scots. For writin in an encyclopædia, shuid we no be mair ettlin efter a formal register? Naw, it wadna aye reflect the wey fowk uises the leid in spaek, but then "wha the deil spak like Keeng Lear?" Mendor 14:19, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

Orthography (i.e. the vowel system and pronounciation) an grammer is the core o the guid Scots tung no words like "siller". As a bairn A kent fowk that wad say "aicht", "ower muckle" an "eneuch" an uised aw the words fae a Burns poem but A didnae ken oniebody that wad say "siller" for "cash" or "money". It juist disnae hae the feel o Scots juist like maist o the fitba glossary. A'm no sayin "siller" wisnae uised at aw but A'm thinkin that the auld fowk uised it in a jokey kin o wye (e.g. Mony complain o want o sillar but nane complain o want o sense) an no for things like European currencies. Benarty 17:37, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

Here's a bit o the poetry o ane o the auld makkars, William Dunbar:-

I that in heill wes and gladnes,
Am trublit now with gret seiknes,
And feblit with infermite;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

Our plesance heir is all vane glory,
This fals warld is bot transitory,
The flesche is brukle, the Fend is sle;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

The stait of man dois change and vary,
Now sound, now seik, now blith, now sary,
Now dansand mery, now like to dee;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

No stait in erd heir standis sickir;
As with the wynd wavis the wickir,
Wavis this warldis vanite.
Timor mortis conturbat me.

On to the ded gois all estatis,
Princis, prelotis, and potestatis,
Baith riche and pur of al degre;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

He takis the knychtis in to feild,
Anarmit under helme and scheild;
Victour he is at all mellie;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

That strang unmercifull tyrand
Takis, on the moderis breist sowkand,
The bab full of benignite;
Timor mortis conturbat me.

Benarty 18:06, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

A howp ye're no sugeestin we write lik thon. The vouel seestem haes chynged a bitie sinsyne.

Here a bittie anent register cryed Expository Scots.

84.135.221.46 19:28, 28 Februar 2006 (UTC)

Ma point wes the vocabulary. Dunbar didnae write doon his thochts in English afore chynging aw the words intae obscure Scots anes that naeboddie ever uises. It's gye strange is it no that modren east coast cooncil scheme speech is mair like Dunbar's auld makkars poetry than/nor it is tae McDairmid's Lallans "revival" movement? Here's a wee bit o Barbour's "The Brus" fae the 1380s:-

Till thai off the erlis party
Intill thar bataill dryvyn war.
Thre dayis on this wys lay thai thar
And bykkyryt thaim everilk day
Bot thar bowmen the war had ay.	
And quhen the kingis cumpany
Saw thar fayis befor thaim ly
That ilk day wox ma and ma,
And thai war quhone and stad war sua
That thai had na thing for till eyt
Bot giff thai travaillit it to get,
Tharfor thai tuk consale into hy
That thar wald thai na langer ly
Bot hald thar way quhar thai mycht get
To thaim and tharis vittaillis and mete.

In Auld Scots orthography "thre" fae Barbour an "ded" fae Dunbar wes likely read oot as "three" an "deid". Note as weill Barbour's "hald" for hold/haud juist like the soond in Falkirk/"Fawkirk". If ye ken the wye it works it's no sae different fae modren Scots an it scans richt as a poem. For masel, a wad like to see "Quh-" uised for "wh-" (fowk in the NE cuid aye say "f-" for thon spellin), "-and" for "-ing" in verbs and -is for -s in plurals agin in modren Scots and "ei" an "ou" for "ee" an "oo". A dinnae like tae see Scots luikin like ebonics. Benarty 07:45, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

A jalouse maist fowk disna ken the wey aulder Scots wirks an wad pronounce the spellins wi English soonds. Aulder (written) Scots haedna diverged fae contemporar English sae muckle as modren Scots tho in the bygane 200 year the onding o English is causin "reconvergence" sae its nae wunner that Aulder Scots seems fameeliar. Yer richt aboot takkin it ower far wi 'obscure' wirds. McDairmid wis weel-kent for his dictionar howkin. Wi English, fowk haes a guid bit schuilin in the leid sae the English wikipedia isna written in the informal speak o English cooncil schames. Shoud we juist haud wi an informal reduced vocabular or educate oorsels an rax oor ken o the vocabular o oor ain leid? Fowk in the NE coud juist as weel soond "wh-" /f/. In aulder Scots the praisent parteeciple an gerund wis for ordinar sindert "–and", "-ant" an "–ing", "–yng". The negative pairticle wis aye "-na" an no the recent "-nae". A dinna ken whit Ebonics leuks like. Aulder Scots vouels aften haed soondins differin fae the modren anes. Ablo is a tablie pitten thegither fae

Aitken, A. J. (1977) "How to pronounce Older Scots" in A. J. Aitken et al. eds. Bards and Makars: Scottish Language and Literature, Medieval and Renaissance, Glasgow University Press, 1-21.

Aitken, A. J., ed. Caroline Macafee (2002) The Older Scots Vowels: A History of the Stressed Vowels of Older Scots from the Beginnings to the Eighteenth Century, Scottish Text Society.

For the modren affcome o thir vouels see the IPA chairt for Scots.

Aitken's  nummer	Early Scots	Middle Scots	Aulder Spellins
1	əi	ei	i-e, y-e, y;, yi:, y#
2	e:	i	e-e, ei, ey, e#, ee#
3	ɛ:	merges with 2 or 4	e-e, ei. ey
4	a:	e:	a-e, ai, ay, e, a#
5	o:	o:	o-e, oi, oy, o#
6	u:	u:	ou, ow, ow#ul, (w)ol, ull#
6a	ul
7	y: or ø:	ø:	o-e, o(me), o(ne), (w)o, u-e, w-e, ui, uy, wi, wy, o#
8	ai	ɛi some merges wi 4	ai, ay
8a	ai#	ɛi# some merges wi 4	ay#, ey#
9	oi	oi	oi, oy
10	ui	ui	oi, oy, ui, uy, wi, wy
11	ei#	i:#	ey#, e#, ee#, ie#
12	au	a:	au, aw, aw#, a#al, all#
12a	al
13	ou	ʌu	ou, ow, ow#, ol, oll,
13a	ol
14a	iu	iu	eu, ew, ew#
14b	ɛu, ɛou, ɛau?
15	ɪ	ɪ	i, y
16	ɛ	ɛ	e
17	a	a	a
18	o	o	o
19	u	u	u, o(n), o(m), (w)o

O coorse ower the history o Scots ye can find occurrance o maist ony concievable spellin for tae juistifee ony conceivable spellin. A think its better takkin 18t an 19t century writin as the foonds o spellin. Seein whit conventions wis uised for tae represent the Scots vouel soonds an tae applee thaim mair conseetent, daein awa wi the apologetic apostrophe an aw. That's the kin o Scots writin A jalouse maist fowk is fameeliar wi.

84.135.250.104 14:08, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

"....Aulder (written) Scots haedna diverged fae contemporar English sae muckle as modren Scots...". Dinnae agree wi ye thare. Here's a wee bit o Chaucer:-

Whilom, as olde stories tellen us,
Ther was a duc that highte theseus;
Of atthenes he was lord and governour,
And in his tyme swich a conquerour,
That gretter was ther noon under the sonne.
Ful many a riche contree hadde he wonne;
What with his wysdom and his chivalrie,
He conquered al the regne of femenye,
That whilom was ycleped scithia,
And weddede the queene ypolita,
And broghte hire hoom with hym in his contree
With muchel glorie and greet solempnytee,

Here's a wee bit o Barbour

Tharfor into the Fyrth come thai	
And endlang it up held thai
Quhill thai besid Ennerkething
On west half towart Dunferlyng
Tuk land and fast begouth to ryve.
The erle of Fyff and the schyrreff	
Saw to thar cost schippis approchand
Thai gaderyt to defend thar land
And a-forgayn the schippis ay
As thai saillyt thai held thar way 
And thocht to let thaim land to tak.

Thare wes mair Norman French loanwords wi Chaucer seein as that wes the tap language in England efter 1066 till Chaucer's time an that extendit to pronounciation o the auld Anglo-Saxon words as weill. Scots is aye mair gutteral wi "wh-"'s and "-ch-"'s the day acos o that and thon gutteral soonds is whit is bein lost wi education, the TV and radio aw bein in English. Nae point obsessin ower obscure vocabulary that maist o the auld fowk didnae uise oniewye if wee bairns is sayin "wat" insteid o "whit" an "Awkinleck" insteid o "Auchinleck". We cannae mak Scots juist like English acos o things that haes happenit in oor history that we cannae chynge nou. Darien didnae work. Scots isnae the international lingua franca. It's English that is. If Scots is tae hiv ony kind o a future we need to tae keep it real an keep it semple so it's accessable for fowk. Maist fowk that speaks Scots haes a core vocabulary o aboot 200 words. It's no a guid policy tae be scarin thaem aw awa by daein a Hugh MacDiarmid an gaun aw cherry menthol wi the dictionary. Benarty 15:38, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Weel its gaun tae be a sair tew writin an encyclopaedia wi a core vocabular o aboot 200 wirds. Mebbes the best wey tae "keep it real an keep it semple" is tae dae this acause that's whit fowk haes learnt at the schuil.

84.135.250.104 16:10, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

A'm no leavin an A didnae sae onythin aboot juist uisin 200 words. Benarty 16:15, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

firstly: lat's aw keep the heid, we'r aw on the same side here.

A dinna hae muckle time tae comment the nicht sae A'm gaunae be quick, but -- Benarty: A dae see the pynt ye'r gettin at. The thing is tho, that you fash yersel aboot scarin fowk aff, an A dinna see that as the problem; the problem is tae get fowk tae see Scots as no a joke. Makkin the leid accessible's nae guid gin naebodie taks it serious oniewey. An A dinna think fowk wad tak the leid serious if we uise a restrictit vocabular. Howkin throu the dictionar for nae ither raeson nor tae be obscure is something we shuid ettle tae evyte, aye, but there nae need tae restrict oor vocabular tae juist the domain o whit's uised in spaek. English disna dae that -- the written domain o English is faur bigger nor its (normal) spoken domain acause that's the naitur o langage. Hou no the same wi Scots?

An tae tie aw this back in wi the oreeginal pynt: A'm aye still no conveenced that the word "siller" is obscure or dictionar-howkin. A dinna raellie come frae a Braid-Scots-spaekin backgrund, an A didna read ower muckle Scots leeteratur as a bairn, but A'd certies haurd the word "siller" afore A read Sunset Song, an A did that in ma fift year at the hie schuil. Fowk unnerstaunds it (ye sayed yersel that fowk uised it in auld sawes an 'at) an it's a guid Scots word. Mendor 20:03, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

PS Houaniver, hivvin sayed aw thon, A am o the opeenion that the best wey tae fecht agin the creenge wad be tae get Scots intae the spoken media afore tryin ower haurd wi the written media. Radio an TV programmes in Scots wad be braw. A think maist creenge-afflictit Scots spaekers A ken wad dismiss thon as rubbish the first puckle times, but afore thay kent it thay'd be tunin in ilka week. An there it wad be appropriate tae uise a spoken register, tho mibbe a wee bit mair formal nor ilkaday spaek. Mendor 20:03, 1 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Spellin

Fitbaa?

Should it not be fitba? OchAyeTheNoo 11:21, 13 Apryle 2007 (UTC)

It cuid be fitba or fitbaw or fitbaa or fitba' an A'v ne'er seen onie really guid reason tae favour ane o thae spellins ower onie o the ither anes.

A canna mynd richt an A dinna hae it tae haund juist the nou tae check but A think the RRSSC went wi -aa spellins for English words that haes -all, sae fitbaa is the teetle the airticle got.

Mendor 16:36, 13 Apryle 2007 (UTC)

PS Sairy, A shuid hae walcomed ye afore nou -- walcome tae sco:!

There's guid raison for no uisin some o them.

Whit happens tae the wird whan its inflectit?

1.Tak the wird baw for example, but spell it ba'.

ba's, (balls), ba'in (balling), ba'ed (balled), ba'er (baller).

The main argiement agin siclike is the apologetic apostrophe that gies the impression that Scots is juist orra English.

2. Nou spell it ba athoot the apologetic apostrophe:

bas, bain, baed, baer.

Eikin the inflection gies the impression o a hale different vouel soond. For tae get aboot thon, an apostrophe micht coud be eikit afore the inflection, but that juist gies whit's been duin abuin.

3. Nou dooble the 'a' for tae get aboot baith o the ootcomes abuin.

baas, baain, baaed, baaer.

Whit lowps oot is, firstlins, the 'aa', no a tradeetional grapheme in Scots at aw afore the seicont hauf o the 20t century, an seicont, haein three vouel graphemes ahint ane anither comes ower orra an aw.

4. Juist uise the tradeetional Scots grapheme aw that's tradeetionally been uised wird final for Vouel 12, for example, in braw, craw an snaw etc.

baw, bawin, bawed, bawer.

Wi thon a tradeetional Scots grapheme is bein uised an nane o the problems encoontert abuin kythes.

84.135.227.180 18:21, 13 Apryle 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, both of you. OchAyeTheNoo 20:39, 13 Apryle 2007 (UTC)